ALISON BEARD: I’m Alison Beard.
ADI IGNATIUS: And I’m Adi Ignatius. And this is the HBR IdeaCast.
ALISON BEARD: So Adi, we’ve all worked with bosses or colleagues who are smart and successful and fine leaders, but everyone else can see that there’s something holding them back from really getting the best out of their people or getting to the next level in their career. And they might get feedback on that, but they’re not really sure how to fix it or sometimes they don’t even want to. Have you run into people like that who struggled to change or had problems with it yourself?
ADI IGNATIUS: I’m sure I’ve had problems with it myself, but it’s easier to talk about other people. So I’ve worked for a lot of very smart, very talented people who did have something that would hold them back. So maybe they were micromanagers, maybe they were perfectionists and just couldn’t get stuff done quickly enough. People who were protecting legacy and forgetting about innovation, people who didn’t really care about process. So yeah, I’ve worked with some very smart people who there was something blocking their ability to move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Well, blocking is the right word. That is what our guest today calls them, hidden blockers. Muriel Wilkins is a longtime executive coach, host of the Coaching Real Leaders podcast, and a frequent HBR contributor. And in her decades of counseling senior leaders, she has found some common patterns in what keeps people from reaching their full potential or having as much of a positive impact as they would like to.
ADI IGNATIUS: Is it basically all the stuff I was ticking off? Are we talking personality traits? Are we talking anxieties? What are we talking here?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. Well, behaviors are certainly a manifestation of the problem, but what’s underlying it is beliefs. Like I can’t make a mistake which causes you to overanalyze, or I need this done now, which creates a false sense of urgency. And those things actually might have served leaders well in the past, but as they move on to different roles or manage larger teams, they really just aren’t helpful anymore. But because they’re beliefs, not personality traits, you can change them and you have to change them before you can change the behavior.
So Muriel is going to talk us through how to do that. It’s a three-step process that should be very helpful for all of our listeners. Her latest HBR article is The Hidden Beliefs That Hold Leaders Back. And she also wrote the new book, Leadership Unblocked. Here’s our conversation.
Muriel, thank you so much for being with me today.
MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you. I’m so delighted to be here.
ALISON BEARD: So let’s first talk about what exactly a hidden blocker is. They’re hidden because people don’t know that they’re there and they’ve managed to be very successful in spite of them.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So hidden blockers are beliefs that you hold. And what is a belief? A belief is a narrative that you tell yourself, it’s a story, it’s an assumption. The reason why they are hidden is because while they may have helped you in the past, they have become so habitual that you’re not even aware that they’re still operating in situations where they actually might not be as effective as they have been for you in the past.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. So if it is something that’s not obvious, how does it become apparent?
MURIEL WILKINS: It usually becomes apparent because there’s some dissonance between what you desire in terms of an outcome and what you’re actually experiencing. And so you can have a cue around that in two ways. It can be an external cue. So if you’ve ever received some feedback, for example, and you’re like, that feedback doesn’t resonate with me, or that’s not the way I want to be seen, or your team might not be performing in the way you’d like them to perform.
So there might be some external cues that things aren’t going the way that you would like them. But you can also have some internal cues if you’re feeling frustration, if you’re feeling burned out, if you’re feeling some unease or some malaise around how you’re operating at work or how you’re leading. Then that is also something you should be listening to that behind that might be a belief, or a limiting belief, or a hidden blocker as I call them, that is getting in your way.
ALISON BEARD: You’re an executive coach. And so, how did you come to understand that lots of professionals who are seemingly high powered, high achieving are suffering from these blockers and it is preventing them from getting that promotion or encouraging their team to perform as well as that they can?
MURIEL WILKINS: Really it was a parallel path, I think, on two levels. So the first level is I saw with my clients that we were very action oriented in terms of moving towards the goals that they had. And so, we were very quick if they receive feedback to say, okay, well here’s what you’re going to do. But what I found is that it wasn’t sustainable. They were able to take the actions, change the behavior, but it was short-lived. And so, I became curious around why is it that they still keep hitting a wall even though they might be successful on the outside, they may still get the promotion, but they were still facing a level of frustration, a level of unease with the way that they were leading.
That led me to think, well, what’s behind that? And I then found that, well, what’s driving the behavior is the belief. It’s our internal operating system. So I saw this happen with my clients. And quite frankly, I also saw it happen with myself where I kept hitting certain walls professionally or otherwise and recognize that, well, maybe I’m contributing to them in some way. And it’s not just about changing what I’m doing, but it’s also about changing the way I think about what I’m doing.
ALISON BEARD: So it’s like, if you get feedback that you’re a micromanager, it’s not, okay, how do I stop micromanaging, it’s why do I micromanage, first.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly, right? What’s driving the micromanagement, which is a lot of times based on, well, what are you thinking about the folks that you’re managing? Or what are you thinking about the work that you’re doing? Or what are you thinking about yourself that’s then leading to that behavior? And what’s interesting, Alison, is this is nothing new. It’s something that’s applied in a lot of other domains. You think about health, you think about weight loss, people always say you’ve got to change your mindset around food before you can change your relationship with food. Well then, so why can’t it apply to the way that we work and certainly the way that we lead.
ALISON BEARD: How did you go about identifying the most common types of blockers that people experience?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So I became curious, again, around not only are there beliefs that might get in your way, but then I wondered are there some that cross different types of leaders? So I looked across over 300 of the leaders that I had coached over the past 20 years and looked to see what evidence there was around what might be driving their behavior. And I wasn’t sure if I was going to find anything, but lo and behold, there were seven that bubbled up to the top. Now, that’s not to say they are the only beliefs that might get in your way, but these were the most common ones across these leaders that I had worked with who, by the way, differed in terms of gender, in terms of demographics, in terms of sectors.
Most of the folks that I looked at were in at very least managerial positions. So they did lead others, but what happens is they become more consequential the more that you’re trying to lead at scale. So the more that you are going up through the leadership pipeline, if you will, or advancing in your profession, the more that there’s a risk of them getting in the way.
ALISON BEARD: I want to clue our listeners into what the seven blockers are. We can’t dig into all of them, but we’ll dig into a few of them. So the seven are, I need to be involved, I need it done now. I know I’m right. I can’t make a mistake. If I can do it, so can you. I can’t say no. And I don’t belong here. So the I need it done now, certainly resonates with many people, particularly in today’s climate where everything is moving at such a fast pace, we need a result. So talk about how that manifests itself and the damage that it can cause.
MURIEL WILKINS: It may not manifest itself in terms of you feeling an internal cue of, oh my gosh, I have this belief and it’s having dire consequences on me. But it certainly has consequences on everyone else. And the way it shows up is it feels like there’s lack of prioritization. We are equating everything as important and urgent at the same time. It feels like people are burned out because they are pulling all types of things to be able to get everything on the list done. And oh, by the way, it never feels like anything is done. It also looks like there’s frequent change happening. So you’re on the change acceleration wheel at an organizational level, which also has dire consequences because the organization may not be equipped or ready to sustain that level of change so frequently.
So there are a number of ways that it shows up externally, and quite frankly, the only person who feels like they’re benefiting from it is the leader itself who holds that belief because they think that they are being productive. But in actuality what’s happening is toxic productivity, which is when you’re trying to do things at all costs or at any cost, which then has a severe impact on the people within your organization and your ability to build capacity within that company.
ALISON BEARD: And we’re going to talk through sort of the process for unblocking yourself. But first, let’s dig into a few more examples. The I can do it, so you should be able to too. That really resonates with me as a Gen X-er who is dealing with people from many different generations who operate in a different way than I do. It also is a functional thing. I come from a journalism background, not a corporate one. Talk about why if that’s my blocker, it could be holding me back.
MURIEL WILKINS: So what’s interesting, all of these beliefs come from a good place. The intent is good. And we often think about that if I can do it, so can you, is motivational. If I can do it, little old me, why can’t you do it? But the assumption there is that what the person is bringing to the table is exactly what you bring to the table, which runs completely counter to developing people 101 and motiva-
ALISON BEARD: And that they’ll do it exactly the way you’ve always done it.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly, right. So if we think about how to develop people, how to lead change in an organization, how to grow capacity again within an organization, the number one rule is you’ve got to meet people where they are. That even as underlies any negotiation or any influence. And so the skill of being able to meet people where they are and the mindset to be able to do that is what leads to a lot of effectiveness in so many different domains. So if our starting point is, no, meet me where I am, which is essentially what the if I can do it, so can you says then we’re getting in our way of really being effective in a number of different areas.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. Okay. And then the third one I just want to touch on is fear of making mistakes. I think particularly when you get to a certain level, you expect that you’re going to know what you’re doing and that everyone sees you, and looks at you, and expects you to be perfect. But then I think also in times like this of great economic and geopolitical uncertainty with technological change, people feel a little bit paralyzed and they definitely are maybe more risk averse because a misstep could really have dire consequences for their career. So talk a little bit about how you see this I can’t make a mistake playing out for your clients right now.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the I can’t make a mistake belief really gets in the way of being able to move forward. And what’s clear with my clients who hold leadership positions is they have two mandates, particularly when they are leading organizations. One mandate is they have to manage risk. Yes, absolutely. This is not about being a reckless mistake maker. You ought to manage risk.
But their other mandate is to move the organization forward in the strategic direction that it needs to go in. We need to get results, we need to be able to deliver to whatever metrics you’re looking to deliver to. The I can’t make a mistake, tends to hold that latter part of the formula back because we become concerned about making decisions, we become concerned about putting a stake in the ground. It can lead to change in course too often instead of trying to follow through. It can lead to then even not delegating and building people from within. So it just holds us back from exacting some of the leadership responsibilities that we actually have.
ALISON BEARD: Career wise, you do make the point that people with blockers can still get promoted, they can still rise very high in the organization. So for someone who maybe thinks that some of their blockers are productive being a perfectionist or demanding urgency, what’s the impetus for doing the work required to push through them?
MURIEL WILKINS: There always has to be an impetus. The change doesn’t happen just from lying around and saying, oh, maybe today I’ll exact some change. So usually it’s either something from the outside that gets imposed. So a lot of times with the I can’t make a mistake as an example for that being a hidden belief is it causes a lot of frustration from stakeholders, your boss, your peers, those who work for you. And if you as a leader do not want to alienate or frustrate your counterparts or your stakeholders, then you decide that you want to do something different. So that might be an impetus.
But the other is that, again, there can be an internal cue. If it’s creating some angst, if you are recognizing that you’re not moving forward in the way that you need to, that you are not performing at the level at which you would like, or that your organization’s not moving fast enough. Then you have to question what part of that are you contributing to? You might not be responsible for the whole thing, but you certainly are responsible for one part of it. And that can be driven by how you’re thinking about the actions your organization needs to take.
ALISON BEARD: So if you’re sensing these things, either your team’s frustrated or you personally are like something is off, how do you go about diagnosing what your specific problem is?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, so I think the first place to start is to be curious. So you’ve got to not just go to what do I need to do differently, which is what most of us who are extremely action-biased will do. You’ve got to take a beat and ask yourself, what is happening right now? What are the outcomes that I’m getting? Where’s the dissonance? And let me reverse engineer it. What are the behaviors or actions I’m taking that are leading to the current outcomes? And then take a step back from that and say, what is the mindset that is driving that type of action and behavior? What are the assumptions that I’m making either about the way that I need to lead, about those who I’m leading, about the context that I’m in that are then driving the current actions? And that’s when you start to name it. So the first step is really even uncovering that there’s some dissonance and then naming the belief that is contributing to the dissonance that you’re experiencing. That all has to happen before you do anything differently.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, and do you ever see people struggle to figure out what it is or if what it is is pointed out to them, they push back on it?
MURIEL WILKINS: Absolutely. Because the belief in and of itself is not bad. It has helped you. It’s probably what’s made you successful up until now. But if we really look at what it means to be adaptable as a leader, you’ve got to be able to open up the aperture and say, there is a possibility that what has helped me may not be helping me now. And that’s when they start loosening the grip a little bit. It’s also understanding that you don’t need to get rid of that belief. We certainly don’t want to get rid of the belief of I can’t make a mistake because there are certain points in time where we need to hold onto that one.
But again, being more expansive as a leader and being able to deal with the complexity that you’re dealing with is going to require you to tap into different mindsets that the ones that are going to be effective for that time. So what it does is once a leader starts understanding that by exploring and being able to put that one to the side for even a limited amount of time and exploring other mindsets. Once they start understanding that that can be their superpower to actually deal with the complexities of the times that they’re in, then they recognize that it’s an asset that they can leverage.
ALISON BEARD: Most of us would then say, okay, my problem is that I’m a perfectionist. I think I can’t make mistakes. So let me change that belief. Why do you have this middle step that is about better understanding what the belief is before you try to fix it?
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. So the first is you want to uncover it, then you want to unpack it. And the unpacking is, let me understand why this belief is even here. In a way, you’re befriending it because as I said before, it’s not bad. It’s just not serving you in this moment. And if you can’t understand when it is serving you, when it is not serving, you have a higher risk of repeating it again in the wrong situations. So part of that process is understanding at what point in your life, in your career, in different situations did it actually help you so that you can assess situations just as we do with a business. You can assess situations that you’re facing and be proactive and say, what kind of belief or mindset do I need to bring into this particular situation to increase the probability that I will get to the outcomes that I desire?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. Okay. So now can we get to fixing it?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yes.
ALISON BEARD: Okay, great. So you’ve uncovered, you’ve unpacked, and now you need to move forward and change yourself from someone who thinks they can’t make mistakes to a different person. That has to start with actually just believing that you can change. If you’ve always identified as a perfectionist, it’s part of your identity, how do you move to a mode in which you wouldn’t believe that?
MURIEL WILKINS: So it’s so interesting, Alison, that you’re even using the terminology change who you are. Because actually, I don’t see this as changing who you are. I think underlying this is people mistaken that their beliefs are who they are. All of our beliefs are learned. They’re what we learned in order to be successful or in order to survive or thrive in any context that we were in early on in life and as we moved through life. The key here is they’re malleable. They are things that you can change according to what it is that you want rather than react to the experiences that you had in the past, but it doesn’t necessarily change who you are as a person. If anything, it expands who you are.
And so, when you start seeing it from that perspective, I think that that is the mindset that then leads to more openness to say, oh, okay, yes, I can pick up another belief, or I can now start doing the work in this way. Which then allows you to actually move into this action phase, which is if I’m picking up this new belief, if I’ve reframed it. And I’ve moved from, I can’t make a mistake to I’m going to do the best, we’re going to do best that we can with the resources that we have, or we’re going to do the best that we can with the information that we have. Then you can say, okay, well, what actions align with that, that it will allow me to get to the outcome that I want?
ALISON BEARD: What are some other examples of ways to reframe these unproductive blockers? So maybe we’ll take some of the others that we discussed, if I can do it, so can you.
MURIEL WILKINS: So – and let me just take a step back here. I think it’s very important that just as you have to name the belief, the original belief is, it’s also very important that people own what the reframe is. So I can suggest examples, but at the end of the day, the work is to say, come up with one that’s going to work for you. And so the I can do it, so can you, it’s a very simple reframe. I will meet you where you are. It’s a different starting line. Doesn’t mean that you’re still not holding the output as critical or you don’t think the task is important. You’re just taking a different path to get there.
ALISON BEARD: And what about I need it done now?
MURIEL WILKINS: I need it done now, that’s a tricky one because you have to really recognize that maybe not everything-
ALISON BEARD: Sometimes you do.
MURIEL WILKINS: Sometimes you do. And in those situations, the house is on fire, I need it done now. I need you to get out of the house. But not everything is a fire. And so it’s understanding that the reframe can be something like, I need it done now if it’s a priority, or I need it done now if it’s actually urgent, or I need it done now if it falls within the parameters of what we have set as our objectives for this month, this year. So there’s a filter that’s created around this what you have prescribed as a universal rule, which then turns it as not universal across every situation.
ALISON BEARD: So can you give us an example of an executive that you’ve worked with or encountered that has gone through this process to turn a hidden blocker into a more productive belief?
MURIEL WILKINS: So one of my favorites, is one of the executives I worked with who his hidden belief or a hidden blocker was I know I’m right. What was tricky about that is he actually was right most of the time. So a lot of times we hear, well, maybe you could hear a different solution. Actually, the folks who have that as a belief, they have evidence that a lot of times they are right and they have this uncanny ability to see around corners. The issue is that there was then a consequence to that in terms of the way that he demonstrated it. He was alienating a lot of his stakeholders. People really didn’t like to be in meetings with him because that’s what he led with is him knowing the answer. What led him to then decide that he wanted to reframe it or look at it differently is when he recognized that his job was no longer to just be a subject matter expert. His job was to lead in that organization.
ALISON BEARD: And that’s something that so many people struggle with as they rise through the ranks.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly, right? And so, leading was not just about feeding the answers to folks. That leading was also about building the capacity so that they could come up with the answers. That’s part of leading is you’re building systems, you’re building people. And oh, by the way, to do it in a way where you’re not alienating everyone else that you need to be able to do the work, but you’re actually getting them aligned. And so, when he redefined what success was, what the outcome was that he wanted, then we could work backwards and say, okay, so what is the belief that you would need to be able to reach that type of success rather than just getting to the answer. And his reframe was, I need to guide people to the right answer rather than I have the right answer.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, that’s just slow, though. And so a lot of people struggle with that. If I do, certainly if I’m editing a piece and I know how the sentence should read, I don’t make a comment in the margins, “Hi, could you sort of emphasize this instead of this?” I just redo it.
MURIEL WILKINS: And it depends again on what your outcomes are. And so, if your desired outcome and the result you want is I’m just trying to get this out the door as quickly as possible, then that works for you. But if the desired outcome is I also want to build talent in this person and I want them to be able to figure this out on their own the next time around, then there has to be a different approach because feeding them the answer is not going to do that. What you’re creating there is learned helplessness.
ALISON BEARD: Right. Oh goodness. Okay. I might need some coaching sessions after this, Muriel. I thought there were different blockers, but maybe that’s my one. So if people can struggle with several blockers at one time, what’s your advice for how to tackle them? Is it one by one? Can you do multiple at once?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. My advice is pick one, which is really grounded in any way you should ever do change is pick one thing at a time. And so I would say pick one. Pick the one that you’re either most motivated to work on or the one potentially that’s having the most just in time consequences for you and is really creating a cost and work on that one. And I even try to hesitate using the word work, but rather practice it because this is a practice, it never ends. I don’t really even think about them as struggle. Every time they pop up, I’m now able to recognize them a lot faster. And when they pop up, I’m like, there you are again. We know what to do, right?
And that’s where we want to get to. It’s making yourself more nimble to deal with any situation in front of you so that you can coach yourself in the moment. And the more you practice it, the less time it takes. And what you’re measuring is that your course correction is a lot faster than it was in the past, and that you are able to enter those situations with a lot more ease than you previously have.
ALISON BEARD: So the practices is the belief pops into your head and you reframe it right away.
MURIEL WILKINS: The practice is, the belief pops in your head. You notice that it pops up. You might not even name it just yet. You notice there’s a dissonance, something feels off. What’s the belief that’s driving the off? What am I doing? What’s driving it? If I want something differently, let me reframe the belief that’s going to increase the probability that I will get to what I actually want.
ALISON BEARD: And can people do this themselves, or we don’t want to make this an advertisement for Muriel coaching, but do people need a coach? Do they need a therapist? Do they need a mentor?
MURIEL WILKINS: I’m trying to work myself out of a job. When I work with folks one-on-one as their executive coach, I measure as success that by the time we’re done, they’re able to do this work on themselves. And I know that they can because they’ll ask me something and before I can even open my mouth, they’ll say, “Oh, I already know what I need to ask myself.” So the key here is in the questions that you’re asking yourself because the answer is already there. And so yes, I absolutely believe that folks can do this for themselves. They can learn to coach themselves in most situations, maybe not all. We all need sometimes a little extra support. But if leaders can learn to coach themselves, it increases their ability to coach others and it then increases their ability to face situations with more ease, which my goodness would certainly make things easier for everyone else as well.
ALISON BEARD: Are there any applications to beliefs that people have not just about themselves, but about their organization, or their industry, or their teams?
MURIEL WILKINS: Absolutely. The issue with those is that oftentimes the things on the outside of us, their teams, their organization, et cetera, are not things that are in your control. And so, while we can sit and reframe them, which could be helpful in just making you feel a little calmer, you can’t then exact the action against it. And so, I always say start with you. Not to say you hold full responsibility for whatever is happening, but you certainly contribute some of it, particularly as a leader. And if anything, even if you’re not contributing to it from an action standpoint, sometimes it’s just the way that you want to change the way that you’re experiencing the challenges that you’re facing.
The uncertainty that’s happening right now on a macro level… Well, there are different ways of experiencing that uncertainty. And something that you do have control over is how you experience any situation, but it doesn’t start from what you do in that situation. It starts with what you think about what you do in that situation.
ALISON BEARD: Where some people see a million risks, other people see a million opportunities.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly. Exactly.
ALISON BEARD: And if you’re a team leader, can you do some work to help people understand their blockers without pointing out, I see that you have this hidden blocker and you always know you’re right and you need to change.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. Because I know I’m right about your hidden blocker.
ALISON BEARD: I know.
MURIEL WILKINS: So absolutely, absolutely. Again, I would say that you ought to start with yourself and you can, number one, role model what it looks like to be able to do this work. So what does that look like? You’re in a meeting and before you start talking about what you want the team to do, you make it very clear what your assumptions are and your beliefs are, right? Again, assumptions is a different way of framing it that may feel more comfortable for you.
But then if you’re helping others on your team before, let’s say, you’re having a feedback session or feedback conversation with someone on your team. Instead of moving directly to here’s the feedback, here’s what you need to do, you may want to ask them, for example, what were you thinking about that situation before you approached it in that way?
If you have somebody who is hesitant to speak up in meetings, for example, you can ask them, what is it that you’re thinking when you’re in those meetings that’s getting in the way of you speaking up? And that then helps you drill down to what is the mindset that they would need to have. You can then shift to what would you need to think, what assumptions would you need to make to enable you to speak up in those meetings? And that, again, allows them to open up in terms of the choices that they have for different approaches in that particular situation.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. And then, let’s say, all of us start to do this in our team and our organization. What do you see as the sort of overarching positive benefit?
MURIEL WILKINS: Look, I think there’s so much talk about organizational culture, and when you think about an organizational culture, all it is a collective set of beliefs. And so, I think at a collective level, if everyone started to check what are the beliefs that we’re bringing in, what are the beliefs that we need in order to have the type of place that we want to have? That is what would then propel a real culture change in organizations and quite frankly, propels change at all beyond organizations.
ALISON BEARD: So it’s basically all of the people who have learned how to do this reframing, getting together and talking about, okay, what are the beliefs that are holding us back collectively and how do we collectively change how the organization is going to think about what it does?
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right, that’s right. You can do this at a number of different levels, whether it’s for yourself, you can do it at a team level. Most of the frustration I see on teams is they can’t get past that storming stage because there are misaligned expectations. Well, what are expectations? Expectations are what we believe needs to happen. And so, you need to level set and check those beliefs, check those expectations and those assumptions before you move forward and decide what they need to be in order for us to be able to move forward. And you can certainly do it at a collective level, at an organizational level.
ALISON BEARD: Well, as you say, I need to start with myself, so I’m going to call you next week, and we’re going to start-
MURIEL WILKINS: Anytime.
ALISON BEARD: … uncovering my biggest blockers. Muriel, thank you so much. I’ve learned a lot from this conversation, and I am going to develop a more positive mindset about my ability to change and the fact that I can reframe some of the beliefs that are limiting.
MURIEL WILKINS: Terrific.
ALISON BEARD: Thank you so much.
MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you. It was delightful.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Muriel Wilkins, executive coach, host of the Coaching Real Leaders podcast and author of the HBR article, the Hidden Beliefs That Hold Leaders Back, as well as the new book, Leadership Unblocked.
Next week I’ll be talking with Jimmy Wales, the cofounder of Wikipedia, about building trust and how the internet has evolved. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate IdeaCast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. If you want to help leaders move the world forward, consider subscribing to Harvard Business Review. You’ll get access to the HBR mobile app, the weekly exclusive insider newsletter, and unlimited access to HBR online. Just head to hbr.org/subscribe.
Thanks to our team, Senior Producer Mary Dooe, Audio Product Manager Ian Fox, and Senior Production Specialist Rob Eckhardt. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We’ll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I’m Alison Beard.
