MURIEL WILKINS: I am Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a long-time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully, they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting, focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Thomas to protect his confidentiality. He reached out because he’s been struggling with making the shift into a people manager role.
THOMAS: I didn’t think that I would be in the position that I am today. I moved up pretty quickly, which was surprising, but also fun and motivating because I had gone through a lot of rough periods in my life. All I do is work now. I put everything that I had into this job just so I could prove to myself that I could be successful. It’s something once I started noticing that there was opportunities for advancement and things like that. So they gave me a team and I’ve just been running with it and doing it the way I know how.
MURIEL WILKINS: Thomas experienced a series of promotions in rapid succession and now supervises other supervisors, some of whom are his former peers, and he’s facing some challenges.
THOMAS: Because of all the promotions, it’s just been one new responsibility after another. One of the things that made me such a valuable and popular team member was helping people that had been there a lot longer than me understand the little ins and outs. I guess I just got a better grasp of things for whatever reason than people who had been there a long time. So I was just always a huge help.
Transitioning from being that help to being the one who called the shots was just maybe jarring for other people as well as it was for me because I came in so quickly and then achieved all this success. Just learning how to deal with people on a managerial level instead of on a teammate level has been the most difficult.
MURIEL WILKINS: He feels like he’s learning a lot and doing the best that he can. But in some ways, he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know because what got him promoted aren’t necessarily the skills he needs to use now. And as he shared, the rapid pace of change has hit him and those he works with pretty hard. So first, I wanted to hear about why he’s experiencing all this change as particularly difficult.
THOMAS: Well see, there’s two levels of supervisors that I manage now. One is a lower level, we’ll just call them QA supervisors. And then the higher level is the shift supervisor level. The hardest part of it was dealing with the shift supervisors because they’ve all been there longer than me.
There was a certain resistance because I was picked by the former person who had my position. It was their option to pick who they wanted and recommend for this position. And I just happened to be that person over these people that had been there a lot longer than me.
I interact with entry-level people every day on our shifts and the lower level of supervisors every day. And I have, I guess, a certain way of talking to people, it is remote, so I word things the same way to everybody and just try to maintain a simple verbiage across the board.
And I guess when you’re dealing with people who are right below you, that verbiage doesn’t always work. I’ve been talked to about switching up the way I do things just a little bit so it doesn’t seem like I’m harping on people, things of that nature. And just really finding the right way to address people has been a little challenging.
Dealing with the people that are directly below me that have been here longer than me has been the biggest challenge, I guess, making sure that I don’t bring down morale, but at the same time that I do have that heavy hand because there’s just been a lot of pushback from a couple of the supervisors. So just maintaining a good balance while also maintaining a strong presence when dealing with these people, I guess, would be the main thing.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So let’s break that apart a little bit. What would it look like for you if there was strong morale? What would be different than what it is now? How would you know?
THOMAS: It’s not everybody that I deal with that is a problem. It’s just certain, I guess, it’s limited to a select few now. But certain interactions with a couple of people that I have to manage where they’ve been there a lot longer than me, I am in charge, but they just use their time there that they have under their belt to give them a leg up to push back.
And I started individual meetings and I met with the main one that gave me problems. And they told me, “Well, I wouldn’t be such a problem if you had more rapport with people like me.” But I feel like I have pretty good rapport with everybody except the people that are giving me problems. And I don’t feel like that’s any fault of my own. I feel like that’s because of how much they have worked or their personality. So just touching bases with people and finding a way to give direction without seeming like I am being abrupt or harsh, I guess?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So you want to maintain rapport, right? Not damage the relationship, while still holding them accountable?
THOMAS: Yeah, because one of the things that did affect me, I was like, “Well, now I’m this guy and I have to do things like this. I cannot let anybody,” this is not the person that I am, but this is just the thought process that I had. But I was like, “I cannot let anybody subvert my authority.”
And any little thing will be visible to others, any pushback, and that will affect my overall credibility with the rest of the team and how well the rest of the team takes me seriously. So I’ve gotten into a couple of small exchanges, I guess we’ll call them. And I may not have handled it right in all circumstances, but I feel like I am understanding what it means a little bit more now. And it’s really about the verbiage and about how you portray yourself in every interaction. So you can’t let the bad interactions define you, I guess.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, yeah. And look, first of all, kudos to you for because you just in the short time that we’ve been together went from, “I’m not the one to blame,” to now owning your part of it. So you may not own 100% of it, but in every interaction you bring a certain energy to it. And that part you do own because it’s yours. The other thing that you said, which I think I’m curious about is you said, “This is not who I am, but that was my thought process.”
And the thought process around I need to show up as credible, then led to you being a little bit more heavy-handed perhaps with your words in the way that you described it. So let me ask you a question. We’re going to roll the tape back. Football season just started, so we’re going to think about it that way, right? Don’t test me anymore on football more than that, because I don’t know about it. But play the tape back.
So let’s say you were to go back to the beginning of when you took this newest role. What do you think your thought process could have been? What kind of thought process could you have held that would have led to a different outcome than where you are now? Meaning and that different outcome being higher morale, better rapport with people, with some of these people, not everyone, because clearly you have it with most, but with a few?
THOMAS: I guess it boils down to letting the pressure of the moment get to me. And trying too hard to get adjusted to the position because I feel like that did fuel some of my bad interactions, was the pressure that I was on as being such a new face in the company and being the face of the team, at that point in time, was just worrying about how well I was going to do, instead of just doing as good as I could, I guess. So just approaching it from a different mindset because there was a lot of stress. I’ve never been in a managerial position like this, so just the quick adjustment to, “You are a part of the team,” to, “This is your team, deal with it. So have fun.”
MURIEL WILKINS: And I’m curious, Thomas, who was putting the pressure?
THOMAS: Well, I guess it was a snowball because, like I said a moment ago, the director did give a time limit. They were like, “Well, we want to transition done by this day.” And so them putting pressure on the person who I took over for, and then the training being so quick, and then me putting pressure on myself as well, once the transition did happen. Because there is no handbook for how to do this, the steps were laid out very minimally. And giving something to a person that honestly, doesn’t know how to do that job very well at all just creates a lot of stress internally.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, the stress internally. And so there’s both external pressure and internal pressure. One that you may not have control over and the other that you do have control over. But what’s clear is now is that when you put that pressure on yourself, what it leads to is you then saying, “I’ve got to be able to do this.” Right?
THOMAS: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: “I’ve got to prove that I can do this to myself.” And what you’re suggesting is if the mindset instead had been, “I’m going to do the best that I can with,” quite frankly, “what’s been given to me,” which, as you said, was limited training, you’re thrown in, you haven’t done this before. That if the mindset was, I’m going to do the best with what I have, perhaps that would’ve at least lessened the internal pressure and therefore changed your approach.
THOMAS: Correct. Yes, ma’am.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All right. So let’s fast-forward to today. If you were to use that as the mindset today, what difference do you think that would make in terms of, as you called it, your verbiage and your communication approach with these folks?
THOMAS: In my opinion, from what I’m seeing now, since the mindset or the approach that I take to things really determines how everything goes as a whole, if I’m very laid back, laid, it affects the rest of the members of the team and they get real laid back. If I push too much, though, then that is also a drawback because it affects the stress of the other people’s performance. So if I can’t do it one way or the other, I have to find a very medium area to operate in.
So if you’re talking about today, it would be more of hitting both sides of the box and making sure that I’m not too over the top and I’m not too laid back. So I guess just striking the right attitude every day that I clock in, anytime that I interact with anybody, not being too positive, but not being too negative. It’s just the happy medium is where the best outcome is.
MURIEL WILKINS: It is a balance, right? It’s a both/and because what we’re not talking about is that you’re dropping accountability and you’re just letting, anything goes you’re good with, right?
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Because that would be very passive and that’s not what we’re talking about. So this is not about laid back passivity. It is about ensuring that you are, again, developing the relational side. What you’re balancing is maintaining the relationship, while still driving the task, which is both sides of leadership.
THOMAS: One of the difficult parts of it and also a big focus of mine, but it was a huge stressor, a lot of the interactions that I was having with the higher level of supervisor. But not just with that level of supervisor, but with the entire team that I manage. I guess part of the reason that I was promoted to this position was because I just have a really high standard that I operate on personally. I do everything as it should be. I don’t cut corners. And it’s easier to get that performance out of the lower level of the supervisor because there’s virtually no pushback from them. But when you’re talking about the people that have been there for a long time and they’re in terms of how they carry themselves when they clock in, it’s a lot more difficult to persuade somebody else’s work ethic to try to get it to where I want it to be when they’ve settled in and they operate how they operate. And you really can’t ask for more without the pushback.
MURIEL WILKINS: What you’re sharing here is that there’s not just one way of motivating, right? Because talking about getting people to do things.
THOMAS: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Which, beyond force and coercion, there are other ways and you’ve got to motivate them into action. And sometimes it comes down to, “Hey, just because I’m your boss, you’re going to do it. And that’s enough.” That’s a hierarchical way of getting things done. And now you’re dealing with people who are like, “Oh, you might have the title, but you don’t have the experience, so you can’t play that with me.”
THOMAS: Exactly. Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right? So the question becomes one option you have is to say, “Well, this is how I get motivated, so I’m going to motivate them in the same way.” And I think that’s a little bit of what you’ve tried. Because what you shared with me is what has motivated you to do the work and what allowed you to double down on doing the work is you wanted to prove yourself. So there was a level of pressure that you put on yourself…
THOMAS: Yes, ma’am.
MURIEL WILKINS: … that motivated you. I think that where there might be a little bit of a breakdown is you’re using that formula and thinking it’s going to work for other people. Meaning, if I put pressure on other people, they’re also going to do what they need to do. And I think with the example you gave is this one person said, “Uh-uh, like that doesn’t work for me. What works for me,” and they actually gave you the answer. “What motivates me is the rapport, the relationship.” And so now you have a choice.
THOMAS: Yeah. And when they told that to me when they made that very statement, the thought process at my time was, “You just want me to be friends with you, but you don’t want me to come down on you.” That’s how I took it personally. And I was meeting with them on an individual basis. And they shifted the conversation away from, “Hey, I’m here to address the issues at hand,” from them telling me, “You’re still very new at this position, so this is what you’re doing wrong.” And I felt like that conversation was a failure on my part, not because there wouldn’t come a point where I could adequately handle that conversation, but because it was such a new conversation for me to have. And the flow of the conversation just did not go the way I expected it all.
MURIEL WILKINS: Most leadership challenges come with layers. The issue being a combination of your past experience as a leader, the way you interact with those above and below you at the organization, and the stories you tell yourself about what’s happening.
What’s surfacing for Thomas as a new manager of managers is a communication issue. He’s looking to motivate others but hasn’t yet figured out how to do. So what complicates things is that he has less tenure than some of his team members and he’s concerned about how that’s perceived.
Let’s dig deeper on the conversations he’s had that didn’t go so well as a window into how he might approach his leadership communication differently going forward. So we can face that as a learning opportunity because believe me, this is not the last time you’re going to have that type of conversation, where it’s just, “Hey, the connect is not there.”
How else could you have interpreted that? Because your interpretation was, “You want me to be your friend and not come down you.” Are there other ways that you could interpret what this person said? And I’m not saying that’s wrong. I’m just saying there might be other ways. What other ways could you have interpreted what was said?
THOMAS: I really have thought about it. Unfortunately, one of the things that I do is nitpick myself, as well as other people sometimes. So there is a side of me that understands what they’re saying, but the operational side of me, the work side of me, doesn’t want to give that area that they’re referring to space, if that’s a good way of saying it.
MURIEL WILKINS: What would happen if you did?
THOMAS:
I feel like I run myself in such a way that I do not have an on-off switch or a medium. It’s just one way or the other. I’m doing my job and everybody else is doing their job how they should, because I feel like if I don’t carry myself that way all the time, then chaos will erupt, and nothing will get done anymore, and I will let everything slide.
MURIEL WILKINS: Is that true?
THOMAS: That’s how I feel.
MURIEL WILKINS: I know it’s how you feel, but there’s a difference between how we feel and what’s actually true. I can feel like I want to have a chocolate chip cookie right now. Is it true that I need a chocolate chip cookie right now? That’s questionable.
THOMAS: That is a great point. So I guess no would be the answer.
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know. I’m just putting it out there. I’m actually asking, has that happened? Do you have a track record?
THOMAS: I don’t, personally.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
THOMAS: But coming up, there were supervisors who did train me before. And then I saw how they operated. And then just getting a feel for the company before I got this position and seeing how everybody else did things. I looked at this person and I was like, “Well, they’re very positive, but they do make a lot of mistakes.”
And then I look at this person and they are extremely laid back and their shifts that they run get pretty crazy at times. So I’ve based how I operate off of the mistakes of others, I guess you could say. So that is where that mindset that we just discussed came from.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And that’s great because you’re a learning, you’re a learner, you observe and you’re like, “Oh, okay, I’m not going to do that.” But you’re swinging the pendulum way to the other side. Which then, I don’t know, maybe five years from now I’ll be speaking to somebody who’s like, “Oh yeah, I worked for Thomas and I saw what happens when you just bear down on people.”
THOMAS: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that’s counterproductive, too because either way you’re ending up with the same outcome, which is counterproductivity. Those supervisors that you observed weren’t getting to the outcomes that they needed. And you aren’t either because as you said, yes, the job is getting done, but boy, it’s causing a lot of exertion of energy that could be channeled otherwise.
So I think you’ve used the word balance. It’s somewhere in the middle. It’s not this on and off. It’s, instead of having an on and off switch, you have dimmers. You know how light switches now, it’s like you can do a dimmer and there’s different gradients, right?
THOMAS: But is it okay for me to ask you a question?
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s always okay for you to ask a question. You can do anything.
THOMAS: So you talked about channeling that energy into different areas. Just talking to somebody with more experience, what would those areas be? Because I’m such a procedural, operation-focused person that I’m always looking at, “Was this done, correct? Was this done correct? Was this done correct?”
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, let me throw it back to you a little bit, right? One way to put points on the scoreboard is, particularly from your background and quality assurance, is like zero mistakes means winning.
THOMAS: Exactly, yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, so that’s one version. What if I told you the scoreboard going forward was, efforts at zero mistakes, right, and high morale. So you get points on the scoreboard for both quality work and high morale. Not just quality work. What would that change for you? What would you do differently? And I want you to get action-oriented. If that was the scoreboard starting tomorrow, what would you do differently going in?
THOMAS: I could start it today because I actually have to work in a little bit.
MURIEL WILKINS: Great.
THOMAS: I guess that would be really challenging myself in my interactions with others because it’s not that I don’t care at all. I was really good friends with a lot of people that I manage now. But one of the things that I had to do, or that I felt that I had to do when I got this promotion, was distance myself from the people that I manage. Which I’m really not sure how true that is or how effective that is. But in my mindset, I was thinking, “If I’m still friends with these people, then there’s favoritism that I could give and then there’s favoritism that they would expect.”
I do like people more than others, some more than others, which is not a good quality for a manager to have. So to avoid all of that, I just distance myself from everybody. And I feel like it’s not the person that I am, but I am a little bit more cold and robotic in my interactions.
What that would mean starting today would be bringing the positive from a sincere place. And turning that switch back on to where I could interact on a real level instead of just on a professional level at certain points when it is applicable to where they could realize, in my best hopes, what they would finally see is, “Well, he was just having the growing pains. And he is finding a balance.” And just really watching my interactions with people.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I think your interactions is where the magic’s going to happen. I think it’s interesting to me that you separate out this is me being professional and that this is me being personal and the two can’t coexist.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: You’re you, right? Thomas is Thomas. As much as we think we can separate ourselves out that way, you can for a certain amount of time. But at some point, somebody’s going to pay the price. It’s either going to be you or it’s going to be other people. And I think what you’re finding is it started with other people and now it’s rolling back on you. Okay?
So the other term you’re using is being friends with them. And I didn’t say anything about being friends. Who you want to be friends with, that is your decision. There is a difference between being friendly and being friends with everyone. Okay? What we’re really talking about is maintaining relationship, building rapport. We’re not talking about being everybody’s best friend.
So I want you to think about when somebody is trying to build rapport with you, basically, they’re trying to connect with you. We have to interact. And the interact when you leave, it’s pleasant. It’s pleasant enough. Even if they told you something that wasn’t great. What is the difference?
Think about a situation that I always think about when I get a parking ticket. You walk up and they’re putting the ticket on the car, and there have been times when I walk away and I’m like, you know what? Even though they put the ticket on their car and they were in the wrong, it was still a pleasant interaction. And there are other times that I was like, “And that was a very unpleasant interaction.”
THOMAS: I understand.
MURIEL WILKINS: What makes the difference for you when you can determine as something as a pleasant interaction versus an unpleasant interaction, regardless of the news or what was being said?
THOMAS: So I guess it would boil down to one of the things that messes with me a lot is, if there’s any pushback at all, it changes the whole tone for me and makes it a lot more difficult for me for the reaction or the result to be a positive outcome.
So I guess I’ve noticed there are two kinds of people that I manage. And there are those that receive instruction without complaint. And then there are those that receive instruction because you gave it to them. But all in all, they’re going to tell you how they feel about that instruction. So the difference to me is the people that I’m interacting with, but I know deep down there is something that I’m doing that isn’t helping in general, regardless of who I am dealing with.
MURIEL WILKINS: And Thomas, you are not alone. Okay? I love it. So you want me to tell you what the difference is?
THOMAS: Go ahead.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s in how you’re receiving it. It’s in how you’re receiving whether somebody pushes back or not. When people don’t push back, it’s easier. You don’t have to exert any more energy. You know that they’re going to do what they have to do, right?
THOMAS: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And then you can, “Okay,” go on your merry way and rest assured that you’re going to get those points on the scoreboard because they’re going to do the work. There’s something that happens for you when somebody pushes back. And you react in a way where you’re trying to mitigate things not working out, what you said before, it’s going to be a catastrophe now. Which, is that really what’s happening? Because all I hear is that they’re just pushing or they’re voicing what they think. And so is there a different way that you could respond to or receive when somebody, quote-unquote, pushes back?
THOMAS: Yes, but I guess it really boils down to me being a reactionary person. So I know that the end result could really go a lot differently, regardless of whether they give pushback or not, based on how I handle the situation.
MURIEL WILKINS: It could.
THOMAS: But because a lot of our interactions are over text, I can type something positive out, but it may come off as passive-aggressive or not entirely sincere and just robotic because of the style that I have, which is hurting in the long run. So I guess it just boils down to me hitting some kind of reset somewhere and maybe taking a small break, maybe that would do it for me to where I just have time to evaluate myself better? Some people can make changes in a day and some can’t.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Look, most people can’t make changes in a day. If they’re telling you they’re making changes in a day, it’s not true. I think you said, “Am I being too reactive?,” right? Reactive is when you keep doing the same thing over. It’s habitual. It’s habitual. It’s like when you go to the doctor, and they, I don’t know if they still do that, but they take that little mallet, or a hammer, or whatever and put it against your knee and your leg goes up, that’s reactive.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s just an automatic response. Being proactive or having a conscious response is saying, “Oh, this came in,” push back, “and now what are my choices in terms of how I can respond? I can send the terse text,” right? “I can not respond. I can listen, and not engage, and just I can acknowledge, and say, ‘I understand.’ I can pick up the phone because maybe I don’t want to risk my tonality being misinterpreted via text. I’m going to pick up the phone. I’m going to get on Zoom.” And this is what we were talking about, in terms of it’s like a dimmer light switch rather than an on and off.
THOMAS: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay? What you haven’t done. It’s not that, “Oh, my gosh, I can’t do it.” It doesn’t sound like you’ve really given yourself opportunity to operate at the different levels of dimming. So level one is, I do nothing. Level 10 is, that terse, maybe just do it. I don’t know exactly what the tonality is, but the tone that really is like ugh, totally task-oriented, not relational.
THOMAS: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: In between one and 10, there’s nine other different levels. And part of it is, you got to try them out and I just suggested a few. You can acknowledge. Acknowledge doesn’t mean agreement, right? Acknowledge is just saying, “I hear you.”
THOMAS: Oh, I’m definitely going to try that, now that you say it, “I understand.”
MURIEL WILKINS: I understand. Doesn’t mean you agree.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right? It could be I agree. It could be Let me hear you out. Right? It could be, “Okay, well come up with a different solution if you think this one doesn’t work. Let’s explore a different solution,” could be asking questions and exploring. It could be, “I get it, this is the way it has to be done this time. Maybe next time, we can do it a little differently.”
But I think you ought to think about this pause is not a reset where you’re distancing yourself from the job. It’s a pause in terms of, especially because you’re getting it by text. You don’t have to respond right away who says that? Who made up that rule, for everything? But if you’re like, let me take a beat before I respond to this and let me think through, what are the different levels of light? I don’t have to be on fire and it doesn’t have to be in the dark. What are the different levels of light that I can bring to this?
THOMAS: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And one of the things I was going to mention is in terms of those levels, and the rapport, and how I get along with people, the people I’m struggling with in my company are only the people that I manage. I have awesome relationships because I’m not directly in charge of people in other areas with those people, and the rapport is very free flowing because there’s no stress behind it.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, What you’re alluding to here, Thomas, or what you’re observing is, the context of the relationship is different. It’s like I was hearing, there’s a amazing doctor, his name is Dr. Gabor Maté, and he was talking about parenting. And somebody asked, I forget what the exact question was. But he was saying how in a family with siblings, there’s often children who’ll say, “Well, I don’t understand why you have this relationship with mom and somebody else has a different relationship.”
Well, each of those kids experienced the mom or the dad differently because the context was different. I’m the last of four. By the time my parents got to me, the relationship was different. The way I experienced them was different because the context was different. So, in a way, did I have a different mother than my siblings did? Yes, I did.
Your context, you’ve articulated it. The context is different. These are your direct reports who have more experience than you. They are starting off from a different baseline than those folks who are more junior than you, who maybe don’t have as much experience than you, who automatically give you maybe a little bit more respect just because of where you sit hierarchically. Whereas, perhaps, I don’t know, but perhaps, those who have had more experience than you, maybe they’re like, “You know what, there’s got to be a little bit more respect in the bank. You’ve got to give me a little bit more respect in order for me to give you back what it is that you want. Because I do have some experience.”
THOMAS: Yeah, I totally understand what you’re saying. But the fact of the matter is, and I don’t know if this is the wrong thing to say, but I am going to say it, for me, respect is earned by the job that you do. So if you are very careless at your job, I’m going to approach you differently than somebody who comes to work, and does what they’re supposed to, and is happy to do what they’re supposed to do. Especially it makes me lose a little bit of respect if you’ve been there for so long and have just settled into this very low standard for yourself when other people do not do that and they’re very productive.
MURIEL WILKINS: And you said, “I don’t know if this is wrong to say,” there’s nothing wrong with that. And it would be absolutely true if who you were working with was another Thomas, it would work for you, that formula. So that’s what works for you. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s how respect is going to be worked the other way around. So this is what we’re dealing with is you’re dealing with relationships. Relationships are not one way.
The question is, how do they feel respected? And I’m only basing it on the one data point you gave, but it sounds like maybe if I was talking to that person, I don’t have the luxury of doing that, maybe they would say, “You know how somebody earns my respect if they build rapport with me.”
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: “If they treat me as a human and as a person,” right?
THOMAS: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: “Then it motivates me more to try to go to bat for them or to try to deliver.” I’m not saying that’s right or wrong either. But it is what it is.
THOMAS: It makes a lot of sense, though.
MURIEL WILKINS: So much about management is about understanding yourself and checking your assumptions, so you can always be adapting. But a lot of management is also about understanding that every relationship is different. That the way you interact with one person at your organization won’t always work for another. And what works for you doesn’t always work for others, as well.
As Thomas articulates his values, it’s clear that he really appreciates when people work hard and get the job done. But in the case of one challenging relationship that he faces, it seems like for that person, the value is more about the rapport. In order to be an effective leader, Thomas needs to accept this. That the success of his interactions with others at work depend on context. Whether that means where that person is in their career, their previous experience at the company, or even the mode of communication.
Now let’s see how he might put some of this knowledge into practice. So this now leaves you with a choice. You can continue down the path of, “I will respect you if you do things this way because that’s the way I earn respect.” Or you say, “Let me try to understand what motivates these folks and what makes them feel respected,” Because if they feel respected or if they feel related to, perhaps, I’m not saying it’s a guarantee, maybe it increases the likelihood that they will do the work, or at the very least it just makes it a little less challenging. I got to sit with HR a lot less around these issues.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right? Or at the very least then I could say, “But I am building the rapport, but they’re still not doing the work.”
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Or, “It gives me more equity to be able to come down on them when I need to.” There’s a question there around meeting them where they are.
THOMAS: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that’s the difference from when you were an entry level, more of a follower, to where you are now as a leader. The onus is on you to meet people where they are.
THOMAS: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: But it’s a choice. You don’t have to do it, but it’s a choice in front of you.
THOMAS: Yeah, from everything that you’ve given to me, it seems like, to an extent, if I do follow the route that you’re pitching that it could have a lot more benefits than my head thinks will be positives, if that makes sense. It will have a better end result than the terror and chaos that I imagined.
MURIEL WILKINS: I think Thomas, look, I don’t want you coming back at me and saying, “Muriel, what were you talking about?” Because I don’t know if it will have a better outcome.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: What I do know is that it’s something that you haven’t tried.
THOMAS: Exactly, yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay? And that’s why I’m saying it’s a choice. I don’t know if you’ll have a better outcome or if you’ll be able to see things differently if you dim the light from level 10 to level seven. I have no idea. But you know how we find out?
THOMAS: How? You try it. I got you.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay?
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: You try it.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: You put the switch down just a little bit to level seven and say, “Well, can I still read? Am I okay? Did everything blow up because I went down to level seven?” And then you adjust, you course correct. That’s adaptability. Versus, on and off, either this way or that way, that’s not being adaptable.
THOMAS: That makes a lot of sense.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s trying to force everything to fit within your construct. Which is fine, but if it was fine, you wouldn’t be sitting here in front of me.
THOMAS: Yeah. So I guess a lot of it too is just I hold myself to a certain standard and then I expect everybody else to be at that standard. But I did talk to the director a bit ago and she said, “Everybody just doesn’t work like us.” Or, “There’s different levels to what people put out. So you can’t expect the same thing from everybody.”
And that was one of the best points that you made was meeting them where they are.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right.
THOMAS: And just figuring out how to direct the relationship in that aspect.
MURIEL WILKINS: So here’s what I would recommend, okay? Take that. I want you to list out your direct reports. You can do this after our meeting, okay? List out all of them. You’ve been working with them a while and ask yourself if for the next week, just going to do a little test for the next week, you met them where they are and still held them accountable, What would that look like? It’s an and. It’s not one versus the other.
THOMAS: What it would look like is something that my head instantly freaks out as you’re saying it, thinking, “Well, now I have to handle everybody slightly different, whether it’s by one degree or 10 degrees,” Just because of how productive it would be to change gears so much with all the interactions that you have in the day instead of just being in across-the-board 11, I guess you would say. So just really personalizing the interactions to the different people. Because being over these people, I know I have already figured out what works for one person and what works for another. But where I’ve been lacking is not taking that into account when I deal with these people.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
THOMAS: I just try to have that same across-the-board standard. And that will work for three out of 10 people. You know what I’m saying?
MURIEL WILKINS: And you can’t do that for everything, okay?
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: You can do that for SOPs, standard operating procedures, right, but you can’t do that in conversation.
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Think about it. You’re married, right?
THOMAS: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Think about everybody, I don’t know how many people you dated before you ended up getting married. But I’m pretty sure you probably didn’t date everybody the exact same way.
THOMAS: Yeah
MURIEL WILKINS: If you did, great, I want to hear that story. Not now, at another time. And this is people, welcome to people management. Part of it can be systemized, for sure, because that’s what creates fairness, and equity, and all that. And there are other parts where you are dealing with human beings who you are trying to motivate. And what motivates one person is different than what motivates another. And it’s definitely not always what motivates you because the context is different. And so part of your job, if the putting the points on the scoreboard is not just about getting the job done, right, the task, the job is also getting folks to be able to do that work, motivating them to be able to do that work.
THOMAS: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And you’ve got to figure out what’s going to move the needle for them.
THOMAS: That makes so much sense.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay?
THOMAS: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, so that’s your homework. We’ve covered a lot and I think we can land the plane here. Tell me how you’re feeling now versus how you felt at the beginning of our conversation.
THOMAS: I came into this very tense, nervous because of the way that I am about how I would do and how well the points would come across, things like that. But with the interactions that we’ve had, I honestly feel positive. Seeing it from somebody else’s point of view is always such a huge help when you have tunnel vision, thinking that the way you do everything is the only way and the correct way, versus what reality is. So I cannot wait to challenge myself to change these little things so that way my overall success as a manager can be at a different level.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, that’s wonderful. That’s really great to hear. And I’m going to say a little something. I think you’re actually ahead of your homework already because I think what allowed you to do what you did today is that you allowed me to meet you where you are. And you met me where I was.
THOMAS: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
THOMAS: Yes, ma’am.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s proof that you can do it. You just need to apply it in these other areas as well.
THOMAS: Yes, ma’am.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. Thank you so much. This has been an honor to work with you.
THOMAS: Yes, ma’am. I really appreciate it. And this was actually a lot of fun, so you have a wonderful day.
MURIEL WILKINS: You too. You too. While Thomas was newer to leadership, many of the issues he faced are ones that even the most experienced leader can face at any point in their career. The belief that what works for them works for everyone else. This can truly get in their way of motivating and developing others, as well as add layers of frustration in how you communicate.
This belief that if I can do it, so can you, is one I dig deeply in my new book, Leadership Unblocked. Because one of the most important things a leader can do is meet people where they are. That isn’t always easy. It will come with some experimentation and trial and error. But if you know what you’re currently doing isn’t working, the best thing to do is move forward by trying another approach that is within your realm of control, managing yourself.
That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time:
CHLOE: I don’t have any aspirations to be leader of the free world. I don’t necessarily want to own a company, be the president, be the CEO.
If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you’ll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Unblocked, Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. You can order it now wherever you get your books.
And if today’s episode resonated with you, I’d be so grateful if you’d subscribe to the show, share it with a friend, or leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It’s one of the best ways to help others find show. I’d also love to stay connected. You can always find me at MurielWilkins.com on LinkedIn, at MurielWilkins, and on Instagram at CoachMurielWilkins.
A big thank you to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff, Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network. I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
