Comedy insiders on late-night threats and stand-up in Riyadh

And finally, there was a backlash against stand-up comedians, including Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr and Canada himself. Russell Peters And Sugar Sammy — who received large fees for performing at the first Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia. The proposal contained a list of topics that comics could not discuss in their issues.

To talk about these and other topics, Star brought together a panel of Canadian comedy insiders: Ryan Belleville is a Canadian Comedy Award-winning writer, actor and stand-up who is perhaps best known for his role on the CBC series Working Moms; Andrew Clark is director of the comedy program at Humber College in Toronto and became Canada's first full-time comedy critic in the 1990s; And Lisa Paul is the creator and lead curator of the annual Comedy Is Art festival, which takes place October 22–26 at the Theater Center.

What were your first thoughts when Kimmel's show was suspended?

Belleville A lot of people were passed out by what was going on in the world, but something about Kimmel's pendant woke them up. I think it was a blatant violation of the First Amendment for the government to literally lean on the FCC to get someone the president didn't like out. It just didn't seem right. When Congress fails, when institutions fail, at least we still have clowns like Jon Stewart. They are our last line of defense.

Floor What Kimmel said wasn't particularly egregious, especially when you think about some of the things others have said in the public sphere. So this excess was alarming.

Clark The idea that the government would use a branch of government that shouldn't be political to force someone to censor a very large and powerful organization like Disney was astonishing.

It must be remembered that governments that try to gain so much control usually do not think about giving up that control. You don't create all this power for the president with the idea that the Democrats will then take it over.

One of the side issues that arose even after the suspension was lifted was the impending death of the late-night talk show. The numbers have dropped. And if people watch them, it’s not in the traditional way, but through short videos on TikTok and Instagram. Ryan, you recently launched a late night show from… Comedy bar Danforth titled “After Hours with Ryan Belleville” on YouTube. Why did you start this?

Belleville This made me very upset Mark Carney had to go against Jon Stewart talk about liberal leadership. There was no comparable Canadian show that could do this. The Internet is like the Wild West, where you can still do something and find an audience. Kill Tony – live podcast, stand-up variety show co-host Tony Hinchcliffe and Brian Redban—has a huge audience, probably similar in size to Jimmy Fallon's talk show. It took 10 years.

I was talking to some friends about the need for a Canadian show, and Gary Rideout Jr. from Comedy Bar said, “Why don’t you do it?” This is not what I wanted to do. But complaining will get you nowhere.

In an interesting twist, Canadians can make fun of talk shows on programs such as SCTV, Royal Canadian Air Farce or Royal Canadian Air Farce. “There are 22 minutes in this hour” but not doing the real thing.

Belleville For years, 22 Minutes was a little constrained by what it could and couldn't talk about. I think they've evolved and learned about social media and are now posting great stuff.

Comedians are perceived as intimidating. I remember when CBC was taping a comedy festival and they told me I couldn't say the word “Rookie” on stage. This was the general policy. I told them I had made the joke many times, in Newfoundland and other places, and that I was going to make the joke. They said they would cut it off. When I said this joke, it caused a huge laugh in the 1,500-seat theater and went on air. But there was a fundamental lack of trust.

Sometimes you just have to give people the ball and let them run with it. If it fails, it fails. But at the end of the day, comedians want to laugh. They are not here to shock the public.

Clark You mentioned 22 Minutes, but I remember interviewing Tommy Sexton and the cast of CODCO. The CBC has already banned a sketch called “Pleasant Irish Priests in Conversation” (inspired by Child abuse controversy at Mount Cashel Orphanage). There was hostility towards comedy that could be considered potentially offensive. It's so Canadian. CBC wanted comedy to benefit society and make everyone feel better about themselves.

Belleville Remember “Children in the hall.” It is considered one of the edgiest shows to come out of here. But it didn't air because CBC took a risk. Lorne Michaels, one of the biggest comedy producers in America, actually demanded it because he had an existing contract with HBO. CBC's arm was twisted. So I guess we'll have to keep twisting their arm.

This leads nicely into the Riyadh Comedy Festival, which has raised some questions about whether to perform in a country with appalling human rights violations. Additionally, some of the comics included in the bill complained of being censored by the left—especially on college campuses—and yet, by signing it, agreed not to make fun of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the royal family, or any religion. Was the salary worth it?

There's a quote by (George Bernard) Shaw that goes something like this: Someone asks, “Would you sleep with me for a million pounds?” And the man says yes. And then he asks, “What about 100?” And they say, “No, who do you think I am?” And he says: “Well, we have already determined this. Now we are haggling about the price.”

The question is, what kind of figure are you? No one is offering me a huge amount of money to go out and do something, so it's easy to say that I wouldn't do it. Dave Chappelle can go on record saying he can joke about things in Riyadh without getting cancelled. But the average Saudi will not have the same rights.

Belleville It's easy to take the high road when you're not looking at a suitcase full of sweet, sweet, probably American money. After this story broke, several things made me feel uncomfortable. One of them was the extreme backlash online towards comedians. Sure, they deserve to be mentioned, but why hold comics to a higher standard than anyone else? Canada sold over Saudi Arabia's $1 billion worth of weapons. Russell Peters and Sugar Sammy have both performed there before, and now suddenly their appearance at this festival is a big faux pas?

I don't think they should have left. But there's also something to be said for the slowly developing cultural soft power of something like comedy. Will this festival change opinion there? Maybe not now, but perhaps in 20 years?

Floor As a woman born in this country where I was allowed to learn to read, write and work – where there are so many countries in the world where women are denied this – I need to be careful about where I put my feet and speak my mind. Storytelling is a sacred act. It is sacred to be able to stand on stage with a microphone and express your ideas without fear of persecution.

Belleville One of the things that confuses me about the festival is that comics were not allowed to make fun of religion or the royal family. All the comics were doing corporate gigs where you weren't allowed to do certain things. But at their core, comedians are the ones who have to make fun of the king. They should say that the king has no clothes.

In America, at least until recently, there were people like Colbert who hosted the White House Correspondents' Association dinner and ridiculed George W. Bush in his presence. He was not thrown into prison or beheaded.

Lisa, how do you plan a comedy festival in such a divided society?

Floor First, artists need to make us laugh, not make us feel uncomfortable. And I don't equate feeling discomfort with “annoyance.” I mean that feeling when they go offside and the room is quiet. And even if they are dealing with traumatic events, they will handle it with care so that we don't walk away feeling violated.

I also want the program to reflect what I see when I walk down the street or go to a (comedy) jam. I want the scene to look like the Toronto I know.

Andrew, I think the Humber School of Comedy wants to encourage all types of comedy. Do you have controversial comics like Andrew Schultz or Tony Hinchcliffe?

Clark Comics go through various stages. When you go from zero material to four minutes, it's great and quite exciting. They may then go through a “potty training” phase where they try to be nervous and if that doesn't work they say the audience can't handle the truth. I hope they get over it and move on. Comedians are like singers. You sing the way you should sing. Bob Dylan and Maurice White sing the way they sing. So the comedian has to figure out what makes them funny.

You want to have freedom of speech, but I would advocate for responsible speech. If you want to make a joke about, say, sexual assault, then remember that in an audience of 100 people, some of them will suffer from it. If you tell a joke to shock, you'll likely hurt those people, you're stupid, and you're probably not funny.

Where do you think this is all going?

Belleville I was talking to a friend in Calgary the other day and he made an interesting point. He said it doesn't matter whether free speech is fully “protected” in the constitution if it isn't exercised. Over the past few years, comedy has seen a strange right-wing resurgence that some call a “bro-ligarchy.” I find this disturbing. But I feel like there is resistance now. I think people understand that the system is a little rigged against us. And that's good for comedy. People are starting to fight the system. This is where it should be. We have some good things coming up in Canada and America.

Clark There is a book “Dead Funny” about comedy during the Nazi era. The author raises an interesting question: were the comics that rang the bells and alarmed people about the Nazis standing up to power, or did they act as a release valve on the anger of the general public, assuring them that everything was okay? Did they stir things up, or did they accidentally become part of a system that kept people passive and feeling like everything was fine? This will be an interesting idea in the future because it is fair to say that in the West we are seeing a rise in authoritarianism.

We'll see where this goes, but I believe in comedians.

Floor Unfortunately, the darker it gets, the better the jokes become. Do I think Riyadh and talk shows can make a difference in any way? No, because we have the attention span of mosquitoes. But I rely on this talent that we have in this city and in this country. People like Andrew Fung and Nkasi Ogbonna. For five days this month (at Comedy Is Art) they will be speaking truth to power in a way that will bring a little lightness to these very dark times.

This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.