Twenty-five years ago, the remains of an unidentified Canadian soldier were brought home from France and laid to rest at Ottawa’s National War Memorial. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier has since become one of our country’s most meaningful sites of remembrance.
In this episode, artist and sculptor Mary Ann Liu, who designed the tomb, shares the vision and symbolism behind her work. Then, Dr. Stacey Barker, Historian of Arts and Military History at the Canadian War Museum, helps us trace the tomb’s origins and lasting significance. Together, they reveal how this monument continues to honour the sacrifices of those who served—and the values that unite generations of Canadians.
Listen to the episode:
Angela Misri: In the heart of Ottawa, beneath the National War Memorial rests Canada’s unknown soldier, a symbol of service, sacrifice and remembrance. After the First World War, unidentified soldiers were laid to rest in ceremonies across the Commonwealth, a way to honor those who had given their lives without ever being named for Canadians. That story came home in May 2000 when the remains of a Canadian soldier were brought back from France and laid to rest at the War Memorial in a moving country wide ceremony.
Angela Misri: Welcome to Canadian Time Machine, a podcast that explores key milestones in our country’s history. I’m Angela Misri.
Angela Misri: The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is more than a grave. It’s a symbol. It’s a place to pause, to reflect on those who served and what they gave for Canada, and today, we’re going behind the scenes to explore how that memorial came to be, the meaning woven into every detail and the stories that continue to remind Canadians of the sacrifices made for freedom and peace. But the story of the tomb, the creative direction, what it represents, is one that hasn’t often been told before. We get into the history and legacy of the Unknown Soldier himself. Let’s meet the artist behind the tomb’s design.
Mary Ann Liu: My name is Mary Ann Liu. I’m a sculptor, I’m a production designer, and I’m a painter. Basically, I’m a maker. I’m a creative that will go into a lot of different fields.
Angela Misri: Before she ever sculpted in bronze, Mary Ann worked in terra cotta, shaping figures as tall as eight feet. But as her ideas grew, so did her need for a stronger, more enduring material.
Mary Ann Liu: The biggest thing a sculptor deals with is gravity. You can’t escape it as long as you’re here on this earth. Terracotta is a strong material that will last 1000s of years, but it’s really easy to break, and it’s heavy. And I look at bronze, you can have a little connection, and you can have it fly and soar, and you can make it do things that other materials cannot do because of its intrinsic strength.
Angela Misri: In 1999 Mary Ann was one of a dozen bronze sculptures invited to enter a nationwide competition to create what would become the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier,
Mary Ann Liu: Working for Jack Harman, who was who had built most of the statuary around Canada, and working in the foundry that was a natural lead in and I thought, well, I want to create something that is significant, not only in my own life, but significant for Canada. I wanted to contribute something that will be lasting. And so bronze is a really natural choice for it, and that’s why it’s known as one of the noble materials. Bronze and granite are probably the most durable materials you can use as an artist in this world at this time.
Angela Misri: Competing alongside her teacher and mentor, Jack Harman, Mary Ann, got to work creating her maquette, a scale model of her design of the sarcophagus.
Mary Ann Liu: We were given guidelines that it had to pay homage to the Vimy memorial in France. So the World War One helmet, the maple, the laurel and the Crusader sword was a given.
Angela Misri: The soldier’s helmet is a direct nod to the Unknown Soldier. The wreath of laurels to symbolize peace and victory, the branch of young Maple Leafs, representing Canadian soldiers and the Crusaders. Sword was a nod to the breaking of the sword statue that stands at the Vimy memorial in France.
Mary Ann Liu: Knowing the history of the Vimy Memorial and the significance that sort of gives you the beginning. But then I also thought, well, you know, the veterans are definitely a massive part of this. So how do we give them Credence? How do we pay homage to the veterans? It’s not a light matter. So I looked at the medals that were given, that was part of my research. And as a consequence, the four corners are decorated with what symbolizes the ribbons. And of course, the medals, one of them is the poppy, which I sculpted in bas relief. So that’s how that came to be.
Angela Misri: Her design wasn’t just about symbolism, either.
Mary Ann Liu: Also, on a practical level, you know, skateboarders are everywhere, and I appreciate them for what they are, but those corners are there as a deterrent, but that’s secondary to paying the respect and homage to the people that actually fought and the veterans.
Angela Misri: Spoiler alert, she won. Mary Ann got the call in December 1999, leaving her less than six months to sculpt the bronze and granite that would become the tomb.
Mary Ann Liu: The story that I wanted to convey, the basic theme of designing the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is based on passage. I’m aware that the soldier is unknown, but what is known to all is the sacrifices that were made. So what is a passage is a movement in time. It’s a transition. It’s not only time, but how do we express it in materials? So the tomb moving from the granite base into a civilization material like bronze. The marriage between the materials, it has to be seamless, and I did that by having rough shapes transitioning into more refined shapes, and then much more refined at the top. The passage of time is also a passage of life and death, passage of emotions, passage of all of that stuff. So that’s really the core of my philosophy.
Angela Misri: A seamless transition from granite to bronze? Sounds like it’s easier said than done. And Mary Ann says that building and sculpting the tomb didn’t come without its challenges.
Mary Ann Liu: When you look at a sculpture, it’s on a granite base or something, you don’t really think about that other industrial aspect of actually taking the stone from the ground. And when I got there, there was a piece of stone that should have been there, it’s small, but it wasn’t. So that piece that was missing had a leaf that would merge onto the stone, you know, from the rough going into the more defined shape. That piece, one piece was missing. So what I did was I carved the leaf off, I took it off and made it look like it had been ripped. So a young branch ripped before its time, and that, I think, was a really, really fortuitous incident that happened. And things like that are really good in sculpture, because it allows for moments of spontaneity, but it adds to the depth of the emotion.
Angela Misri: Mary Ann estimates that the entire sculpture weighed over 1000 pounds, meaning even the ground beneath it had to be carefully reinforced before it could be laid to rest.
Mary Ann Liu: They had found that there were cavities under the War Memorial, and that was a major project that needed to be done. I think there were holes the size of Volkswagens. You know, what goes under the ground is something we don’t really think about. You know, by the time the piece is put together, I was able to breathe a sigh of relief. We put the piece together, and then it gets transported and, and I’m it’s quite nerve racking, actually, you know, because what happens if the crane breaks or something? You know, we’re dealing with a lot of weight here. So the piece was installed, and that’s all public works, you know, I basically held a walkie talkie and basically let them do it, because I don’t want to interfere with experts who do this year in to year out. So they couldn’t put the lid on, you know, at the time, because what had to go inside.
Angela Misri: On May 25 2000, the remains of the Unknown Soldier were brought home from France. Three days later, he was laid to rest at the National War Memorial, where the coffin was covered with soil from every province and territory and from the battlefield at Vimy where he once fought. Mary Ann was there with her family.
Mary Ann Liu: The Veterans really wanted to speak with me, and it was really, really touching, because they gave me pins from their different chapters, which I have a collection of almost every pin. And I was really touched to meet them in person. It was really a whirlwind. You know, there was a lot of people who wanted to talk to me about the tomb, which I am more than happy to. But I really remember that the hugs and the handshakes from the veterans, they really, really moved me.
Angela Misri: But what stuck with Mary Ann the most was what happened next. Hours after the ceremony, once the coffin had been placed in the tomb and the crowds had cleared, she returned with the team to seal the tomb one final time.
Mary Ann Liu: The last thing that got put on was the bronze, and it’s really super permanent glue, right? It’s stuff that will never break. So they had barricades. I was really kind of taken aback by how many people were around. And when we were done, you know, a little bit of touch up here, polishing whatever, when the barricades came off, the crowds rushed in like water surrounding the tomb, and people started kneeling and kissing the bronze. And I was really quite taken aback, because had I known the emotional response, it probably would have made me really nervous to work. But because I was not so aware of that emotional response, I worked. I always worked really hard anyways, but you know, I worked to my stable emotional level, which is probably the most productive and but when I saw that, I went, “Wow, this is amazing.”
Angela Misri: And now, 25 years later, Mary Ann is once again paying her respects to the Unknown Soldier in a completely new way.
Mary Ann Liu: I recently had done a gold coin for the Royal Canadian Mint, and there is 1500— I don’t know how many are available now. But coming soon will be the toonie that I designed commemorating the 25th anniversary of the inauguration of the tomb of the known soldier. And we all know what a toonie looks like, right? All Canadians know what a toonie looks like, and that’s so it’s a very, very different design. So you can go to the mint after the release of November 4 and see it at the raw mint site. That’s the toonie that commemorates the 25th inauguration of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. So I’m really, really happy to do the work. I’m like, I feel really honored and privileged to have been chosen to to have done all of this.
Angela Misri: It’s official. Mary Ann’s toonie is now in circulation. So next time you get some change, take a closer look. You might just be holding a piece of her art in your hand. The Royal Canadian Mint has also released a limited edition gold coin featuring a close up of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier available through the Mint’s website and postal distributors. You’ll find the link in our show notes if you’d like to see it. And for Mary Ann, this latest project isn’t just about honoring history. It’s also a reminder of why the arts matter so deeply.
Mary Ann Liu: Support the arts. Everybody, support the arts. Because without culture, we are peoples without civilization. Support the arts in every aspect that you can. Go to shows, buy art, make art, and don’t stop.
Angela Misri: Through her art, Mary Ann Liu helped Canadians see the Unknown Soldier in a new light. But the story of that soldier and the meaning of his return home stretches far beyond the sculpture itself. To explore that history, we spoke with Dr. Stacey Barker, historian of arts and military history at the Canadian War Museum, who has been leading research for the museum’s exhibition on the Unknown Soldier. Hi, Stacey. It’s great to meet you.
Stacey Barker: Good to meet you too.
Angela Misri: So after the First World War, so many soldiers were never identified, leaving families with unanswered grief. How did the idea of the Unknown Soldier come about, and what did it originally symbolize?
Stacey Barker: So the modern concept of the Unknown Soldier does come out of the First World War. This was a conflict with just massive amounts of casualties and millions, all told, in total, for all the combatant nations, millions of missing and unidentified soldiers. And so there’s a couple of competing origin stories for the idea of an unknown soldier as a commemorative concept. But a British Chaplain named David Railton, he was a military chaplain. He was on the Western Front in about, I think, 1916 and he came across an unknown burial on the battlefield. And he started thinking about, you know, what does that mean to the families, to the loved ones, to not know what happened to your family member, your husband, your son, your brother? Started thinking, What can I do to help so he got the idea of taking one unknown Burial from the battlefield, returning him home, and sort of then he’ll symbolize all of those missing, and it’s a place for people to grieve. His anonymity is important, because then he can be every missing soldier. So that happened in 1920 he was interred in Westminster Abbey. They took one unknown soldier from the war cemeteries overseas. Now he’s the unknown warrior in London. France did the same, United States did the same, but not Canada, not just yet. That takes a few decades, because at the time, Canada’s fighting is part of the British Empire. So it takes until the 1990s before Canada decides to maybe repatriate their own Unknown Soldier. Because before that, the unknown warrior was held to represent all of those who had fought for Britain during the First World War. So it really does come out of that first world war context of many missing and dead.
Angela Misri: And you said this is kind of a modern take on the Unknown Soldier, but there have been unknown soldiers for hundreds of years, correct?
Stacey Barker: Certainly, as long as there have been wars, there have been soldiers who go missing, people who are just they just lose their identity in death. So that’s, that’s not new, and that’s, that’s not uncommon. But the notion of of commemoration after the first war was very important. Remember, the First World War was a very destabilizing experience for many nations, including Canada, and with so many dead, you needed a way to make sense of that, and you needed a way to grieve as well. Remember, for Canada, those bodies stayed overseas, so they didn’t come home. But by taking one soldier and making him stand in for all of those dead, it gives people a place to focus their remembrance, their grief. So certainly, while there have always been soldiers who didn’t come home, this modern concept sort of fits into the commemoration that starts up after the First World War, that need to remember, that need to make meaning of what we’ve just gone through. And you see that memorials and monuments are built all across Canada and overseas. Every small town has a cenotaph memorial at Vimy Ridge. All of those things are a way of making meaning, and the Unknown Soldier kind of fits in with that. So that’s when I say the modern concept, it really does come out of the First World War.
Angela Misri: Is it cultural at all? I mean, I’m thinking about this—I’m a Hindu. I’m thinking about this from the religious perspective. Is there a component of this that is about Catholicism or Christianity?
Stacey Barker: There’s definitely a real religious feel to it, a sacred feel to it. I mean, this is a grave after all, yeah, you know, I remember, he’s at the National War Memorial Ottawa, and after he was interred there, there was a real change in character. Becomes a more solemn place, because that is a grave site. You kind of want to be respectful around it. You see people going up to it. And, you know, having a moment with that tomb, with that soldier. So in terms of Christian symbolism, that was very important after the war, most Canadians were Christian, so perhaps. But I don’t know if I could really say that this was a Christian way of remembering those who fell.
Angela Misri: Yeah, I’m curious about it, because in Hinduism, like we cremate and then we give to the Ganges, right? So that’s like our locational place to share grief and to share space about that. So I was just curious if it was cultural.
Stacey Barker: I feel like the impetus to create memorials and monuments and cenotaphs after the First World War was similar. It’s a way to create a place where people can go and remember, so maybe in that sense, yeah.
Angela Misri: So Canada’s Unknown Soldier was chosen from a cemetery near Vimy Ridge, which I had the opportunity to visit a few years ago. It’s a site so central to our national story. Can you talk a little bit about why that location was chosen?
Stacey Barker: Yeah, so Vimy Ridge is, I mean, it looms large in our collective memory of the war. Many people see it as a foundational moment for a Canadian nationhood, because it’s the first time that all four Canadian divisions fought together in a battle, and it was a victory, and a costly victory at that and of course, we have the famous Walter Allward’s famous Vimy Ridge memorial in France, it was deemed appropriate to choose a burial from the Vimy region, the Vimy area, because, you know, it is possible that he fought there. We don’t know that for sure, of course, because we don’t know who he is, but he probably did die in the area. So because the soldiers were buried close to where they were killed. So it was, it was important to draw him from that area, just because of the the immense meaning that Vimy had, and has still has to this day. And there are other call outs, Walter allwards. Vimy Memorial has a small detail on one side, and it’s a it’s a tomb, it’s a sarcophagus. And if you look at that, look at a picture of that, you’ll notice that the carvings on top the helmet. This sword, the laurel leaves, those are intentionally, I don’t want to say imitated, but there’s an intentional call out to that. In the design of the tomb in Ottawa, there’s a sword, there’s a helmet, there’s maple leaves now, and laurel leaves. So there’s a connection there in the design between these two tombs, and also in the fact that the soldier was drawn from this area that Canadians feel very strongly about.
Angela Misri: So we call him the Unknown Soldier, yet historians have been able to uncover a few details. And it’s funny that you talk about the anonymity being important, because it could be everyone, it could be anyone. But what do we actually know, or think we know about who he might have been?
Stacey Barker: Pretty much, all we know is that he served with the Canadian expeditionary force. When the grave site was opened and the body was exhumed, they found some scraps of whatever he’d been buried in. They found his Canada shoulder titles, they found parts of his gas mask. They found parts of his boots, but nothing identifiable, and that was important, because we promised never to try to identify him. The Commonwealth or Graves Commission was very good to help us with this, and those graves are never to be opened. This was an exception. So we know he was with the CEF and we know he probably died in the area of Vimy Ridge. We know he was a male, because only men were in combat at that point. That’s really it.
Angela Misri: He really could be anyone, and that’s kind of the point.
Stacey Barker: It is the point. His anonymity is the point because you can put anyone’s face on this person. And you know, when he was reentered here in Ottawa in the year 2000, Governor General Clarkson gave a really powerful eulogy, and she referred to him as “every soldier in all our wars,” that’s always stuck with me, because that’s what he is. And you know, his power is in his anonymity, so we’ll never know who he is, and that way he can be everyone.
Angela Misri: Yeah, and you refer to that moment, and I watched it on TV 25 years ago, 1000s of Canadians lining the streets to honor him. Why do you think that ceremony resonated so deeply across the country?
Stacey Barker: I think Canada has a relationship with war that we sometimes don’t really want to think about that much, but it has really formed our country in many ways. We’ve all had relatives who fought in war. Many of us have loved ones who died in war, even those family members who didn’t serve had brothers, fathers, sisters who served as soldiers, nurses, air crew, sailors. So there’s a connection there. There’s a personal connection that many people have with war, the impact of war, and I think this was another way to recognize that and to remember that he’s really become a focal point at the National War Memorial, you’ll see people going up there, not just on Remembrance Day, but any day of the week. You’ll see people standing there, and you can get really close to the tomb. There’s nothing barring you from having a moment and remembering, whether it’s about people that you know, or just in general. So I think it was just another way for Canadians to remember and to keep remembering. And you know, 1995 which is five years before the soldiers brought home. That was the 50th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. So it got people in a commemorative sort of mindset, if you will.
Angela Misri: Why did it take ‘til 2000?
Stacey Barke: Why did it take ‘til 2000? Well, up to that point, up to the 1990s the unknown warrior in London was held to represent all soldiers who fought for the British Empire during the First World War. And then in 1993 Australia repatriated an unknown Australian soldier to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the end of the First World War. And that set an important precedent. And it got people in Canada thinking, hey, we could do this too. This is appropriate. So the Royal Canadian Legion led a campaign towards the end of the 1990s to do this. They started a working group. They got a whole bunch of government departments involved, and they made this happen. So that’s why it took so long.
Angela Misri: Because it kind of got covered off by the British, okay.
Stacey Barker: Right, yeah, we because we fought as part of the British Empire. So also, to remember, Canada has another unknown soldier, Newfoundland has its own that they repatriated last year because Newfoundland was not part of Canada during the First and Second World War. They, too, were a British dominion. So they have their own rich tradition, and they have their own now. So we have two in Canada.
Angela Misri: So I watched the ceremony in 2000 on TV. I was, I think I was in Toronto, yeah, were you at the ceremony in Ottawa?
Stacey Barker: I believe not. I think I was living there here at the time, but I think I was in Vancouver. But I have watched it. I’ve watched video, photographs and whatnot, and it looks like it was an extremely moving ceremony. Of course, I’ve been to many Remembrance Day ceremonies here in Ottawa as well, and it had the same feel, even though this was in May of people getting together to remember not just this one particular soldier, but all soldiers.
Angela Misri: So Canadians’ perspectives on war and military service have changed a lot, definitely since the First and Second World Wars, but also a lot since 2000. How do you think the Unknown Soldier reflects those shifting attitudes?
Stacey Barker: You know, it’s interesting. I feel like the Unknown Soldier being at the National War Memorial allows people a more personal space to reflect on a more personal level, if that makes sense. Even though he’s anonymous, we don’t know who he is, I feel like people can connect with that. And I think that’s what people like now, at the War Museum, whenever we do exhibitions, people like personal stories. They like things they can relate to, because everybody’s got a family history that touches on war. And I think people, I don’t want to say enjoy, because that’s kind of not the vibe. But people relate to history if they feel that it relates to themselves in some way. So I think that that’s probably what’s going on there.
Angela Misri: No, but do you think I mean just spinning off that? Because that makes sense in my head, when you can relate to it personally, but when you have wars going on now, which you’ve had going on for our entire lifetimes, that maybe we don’t support, or maybe the Canadians don’t go to. Like, how does that reflect on Canadian—do we still need a war memorial? This is a question.
Stacey Barker: Oh, absolutely, I think we do, because it’s part of our history. War shaped Canada, whether we like it or not, war has shaped Canada, and it continues to shape Canada, and we will always have a place to think about that. You don’t have to go to the War Memorial and agree with every war that we’ve been in, but you can go there and you can think about the impact of war, on humanity, on Canadians, on everyone, whether or not you serve. Every Remembrance Day, I think about the people in my family who served, who died. I think about their loved ones and how their lives were impacted. I think about everybody around the world impacted by war. Yes, we do need a space to reflect, I think. Yes.
Angela Misri: So with Remembrance Day approaching, as you mentioned, the Unknown Soldier takes on a very immediate significance, at least in an annual way. Why do you think he continues to resonate so strongly with Canadians today?
Stacey Barker: I think because he’s anonymous, and you can kind of project whatever you’re feeling about war, whatever you’re feeling about what’s happening now or what’s happened in the past. You have a place to reflect that’s pretty solemn and pretty quiet. Usually, I know it’s in the middle of downtown Ottawa, but it feels quite solemn. And people can also go to the War Museum and do this as well. You know, we have the original headstone of the Unknown Soldier that was taken from France. It’s now in our Memorial Hall. Of course, every year, on Remembrance Day, the sun comes through that window, and it illuminates the headstone in a very powerful ceremony.
Angela Misri: What does it say on the original headstone?
Stacey Barker: His original headstone says, it’s, “Known unto God,” which is what was put on headstones of the unknowns, because he’s only known unto God.
Angela Misri: Right.
Stacey Barker: The new headstone, there’s actually a new headstone at the site of his old grave in France, and it explains that he’s now in Ottawa. He’s now the Unknown Soldier here. In the years since his internment at the National War Memorial, You’ll notice that on Remembrance Day—and this is something I do—at the end of the day, people go up and they lay their poppies on top of the tomb, and at the end of the day, it’s just covered in poppies and other mementos that people bring and leave, and I think that tells you something about what that means to Canadians to have that space. And also, on Canada Day, you’ll see that people leave their little paper flags all over the tomb. And again, there’s something going on there. People like having a place to go and pay their respects and say, you know, we remember you.
Angela Misri: No, I think that’s a really good point. I’ve done the poppy thing.
Stacey Barker: Yes.
Angela Misri: It does feel right. And there’s something about assembling. Also like having a place to assemble and gather, and we’re all in our own thoughts about our losses, but we’re also all gathered.
Stacey Barker: It’s true, it’s communal remembrance, but it’s also personal remembrance. Yeah.
Angela Misri: I find that really powerful. Thank you so much for joining us, Stacey.
Stacey Barker: Thanks for having me.
Angela Misri: Thank you for listening to Canadian Time Machine. This podcast receives funding from the Government of Canada and is created by the Walrus Lab. This episode was produced and edited by Jasmine Rach. Amanda Cupido is the executive producer for more stories about historic Canadian milestones and the English and French transcripts of this episode, visit the wallace.ca/canadian Heritage. There’s also a French counterpart to this podcast called Voyages dans l’histoire canadienne. So if you’re bilingual and want to listen to more, you can find that wherever you get your podcasts.
