NPR's A Martinez talks with Demetre Daskalakis, a former senior CDC official, about the agency's renewed false claims about vaccines and autism.
AND MARTINEZ, GUEST:
We're joined by Dr. Demetre Daskalakis. He is the former director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. He resigned in August, citing concerns about the direction of the agency under his current leadership. Doctor, I'll just read you the first line from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website about autism and vaccines.
(Reading) The claim that vaccines do not cause autism is not a valid claim because research has not ruled out the possibility that childhood vaccines cause autism.
So what do you think about it when you hear this?
DEMETER DASKALAKIS: The point is ambiguity. There is also no evidence that umbrellas cause kittens – don't call kittens. This is literally an attempt to say that there is some misinformation or misrepresentation when in fact vaccines do not cause autism. Forty very high-quality studies involving almost 6 million people, conducted in seven countries, clearly showed that vaccines do not cause autism. So when I hear that, my response is: That's why I left the CDC. You see RFK Jr.'s ideology elevated to the realm of legitimate science while being branded as a CDC document.
MARTINEZ: So…
DASKALAKIS: When you can't…
MARTINEZ: Yes.
DASKALAKIS: …Prove that something is causing the problem, just put a piece of paper on a website and then it becomes a reality. This is magical thinking
MARTINEZ: So, Doctor, then I want to read you the second line, given what you just said. So here's the second line from this part: autism and vaccines.
(Reading) Research supporting this link has been ignored by health authorities.
Does this seem controversial to you, or what do you think about it?
DASKALAKIS: This sounds like the same old rhetoric, the same anti-vaccine stereotypes that we've been hearing for a very long time. I think what you have now is RFK Jr., who has now elevated his ideology into an official document. I think the bottom line is that every scientist I've ever talked to, every review I've ever seen, every meta-analysis, everything that's done to a high standard actually reports that vaccines don't cause autism. The point is, when I hear this, I hear a vendetta, which is why you see the destruction of the CDC and public health. The Secretary of State has no respect for public health, does not understand science, and quite frankly is weaponizing the CDC for the potential future profit of his colleagues and himself.
MARTINEZ: What do you think might happen to public health? What do you think the effect might be when the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention takes…
DASKALAKIS: I think it's…
MARTINEZ: …That position?
DASKALAKIS: Yes. I think this has already happened. So, you know, as I said, when I resigned, my main reason for resigning was that science was being supplanted by ideology and that scientists at the CDC were being held hostage while others were creating policies and documents and actually, you know, formulating data analyzes that were not best practice. In fact, the CDC is not to be trusted right now. And I think that may be true in other areas, but most certainly with regard to vaccines, I can say with great confidence that I would not trust anything coming out of the CDC at this point or in this era. Their behavior – by them I mean HHS. These are not CDC scientists. But HHS's behavior demonstrates that they are using the CDC as a front for their own nefarious purposes.
MARTINEZ: Dr. Demetre, there will be people who will read these new lines on the CDC website and think that finally someone is listening. What is your message to them?
DASKALAKIS: I mean, you know, the biggest thing is that, you know, I think public health has been through some very challenging times over the last few years, starting with COVID. And the lesson, I think, was very clear: you really can't have effective public health without really good engagement with the community and listening to them. You need political will and you really need good science. And so I think what's really important is that public health needs to do a better job of listening. But just because you think or feel it doesn't mean it's true.
What really struck me was a line on the new CDC website that says the rise in autism prevalence since the 1980s correlates with an increase in the number of vaccines given to infants. This is bad science. Many things also increased during the same era. So, the parents who do feel more visible here – I think it's really important to say that, you know, they're being targeted by someone who's giving them bad information and false hope so that he and his colleagues can profit in the future, potentially from litigation. I mean, the point is…
MARTINEZ: Yes.
DASKALAKIS: …For example, thanks to this document being released to the world, RFK Jr. now has the ability to, you know, potentially change the vaccine injury compensation program. This…
MARTINEZ: Doc…
DASKALAKIS: …A program that actually protects companies…
MARTINEZ: Yes.
DASKALAKIS: …So they can produce vaccines.
MARTINEZ: Doctor, quickly – just a few seconds – where should people look for information if they are considering vaccinating their children?
DASKALAKIS: No, that's great. Pediatricians. This is one of the most sacred relationships between parents of their children and doctors. You know, the secretary said when he testified to Congress, don't listen to him for medical advice. Let me repeat that. He's right. Not. The right source is your healthcare provider, whether a pediatrician, nurse, or pharmacist.
MARTINEZ: Okay.
DASKALAKIS: Look at local health departments and also professional organizations that…
MARTINEZ: Thank you, but…
DASKALAKIS: …Imagine the doctors.
MARTINEZ: …We're going to leave it right here. This is Doctor Demetre…
DASKALAKIS: Great.
MARTINEZ: …Daskalakis, former director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
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